The sport of mixed martial arts has, without a doubt, caused a renewed interest in the communities, as well as introducing the martial arts to a brand new audience. Personally, I love the UFC and what it is doing to promote it to the masses.
And while some of you might think that since this article is titled “Wing Chun vs. Jiu-Jitsu” will attempt to “trash” Jiu-jitsu, you would be wrong. In fact, far from it. Jiu-jitsu has more than proven itself both in and out of the ring, and even if it didn’t, those that know me already know that I have a great respect for all martial arts.
Instead, articles such as this are merely to educate the Wing Chun practitioner in arts they might be unfamiliar with.
In that light, let’s take a brief look at how a Wing Chun fighter could approach a jiu-jitsu fighter. Note that this is only a “possible” scenario, since anything can and usually does happen in the real world. On the flip side, this is not the ring and there are no rules. So if something here pinches a nerve, take into consideration that there are tons of “what if’s” out there.
First, let’s consider a jiu-jitsu fighter’s preferred method to fighting. Striking is not out of their realm, but their primary goal is to submit you, to lock a joint to the point that if you don’t give up, you’ll never use it again. In addition to this, you can quickly get choked out without even knowing how they did it (and yes, they’re that fast).
So how does a WC fighter contend with this? Number 1, NEVER EVER grapple with a grappler. Let me repeat that: NEVER EVER GRAPPLE WITH A GRAPPLER. You wouldn’t box a boxer, and you wouldn’t kick fight with a kicker. Fight YOUR fight, not the fight of the attacker.
Possible responses are:
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Against shooting in, drive your elbows into the back of their head or the back of their neck. Immediately continue with chain-punches and drive them into the ground.
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Another response to shoots is to immediately start slamming your fists into their face, head, neck, throat, etc. Wallbag and dummy training condition your fists and limbs to withstand a great deal of punishment like this if trained correctly.
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Remember section 2 of the Siu-Nim-Tau? Or most of the Chum-Kiu? Many think that Wing Chun does not have anti-grappling movements, forgetting that the art was created to defeat the Shaolin methods (many of which are grappling, takedown and fighting methods). Yes, Wing Chun DOES have anti-grappling and anti-takedown movements. In fact, the first and second movements of the wooden dummy are exclusively for that very thing.
Some will vie to “sprawl out” against an incoming shoot, and at first it doesn’t sound like a bad idea. But if you sprawl out, then you are going to the ground. The ground is the last place you want to be, particularly with a grappler.
First of all, the ground is the grappler’s preferred environment. It is there that he/she works best and is in their realm. Second, our art’s preferred environment is standing up. On the ground we are very limited, particularly in the real world when the attacker’s buddies are coming in to join the fray.
Ground work for the ring is essential, but in the real world where cowardice runs rampant (and is usually followed with “whiskey muscles”), your odds of having to contend with more than one attacker are greater than ever.
Do you really want to be on the ground where you have limited mobility and you are at the bottom of a dog pile? No, you don’t. So increase your odds by doing everything you possibly can to stay off the ground.
One other possible response is to utilize knees into the face, coupled with driving your palms down on the back of the head, adding a double force to the effect. It is not as easy as many think it is, but it “is” a viable response if trained.
Now, nothing can truly beat working your skills against a willing jiu-jitsu practitioner that wants to experiment working with you. At first, you might find yourself in situations that you never thought you would be in. But don’t look at it as a “bad” thing; instead, keep it a learning experience and always stay positive by examining what works in Wing Chun against these types of attacks.
Work the concepts, and work them to competence. Don’t just do a few drills and think “I got it.” No you don’t. It takes thousands of repetitions to create a nerve pathway so that something happens automatically without you having to think about it. And that’s how many times you have to work every concept of Wing Chun to make it automatic.
Remember that this is just a basic look at the “what if’s.” There are tons and tons of things that “could” happen, so think about this as you work your drills and learn more about the concepts that makes Wing Chun truly effective. In this way, you continue learning more about something in a different light that was right in front of you the whole time.
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4 Responses to “Wing Chun vs. Jiu-Jitsu”
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August 31st, 2008 at 3:44 am
Good points.
Like the promoter told Tommy Gunn in Rocky 5, “I TOLE U nevah fight a street fightah fight. U a prize figthahh!”
I have a BJJ-MMA trainer that comes into my school 2 days a week and we work BJJ with a small group. I have BJJ blue belt from Royce Gracie but I don’t list it in my stuff b/c the BJJ scene is really “not my thing” however, I have competed in grappling and spar the people we prep for the grappling and mma fights.
Point being I do the BJJ strictly to learn how to get out of the holds and locks. I suppppposssse I could utilize it if I were getting my tail end whipped standing up. But I like th HapKiDo and it looks like W.C. philosphy which is take them down/knock them down and then step on them or get away. Of course in HKD we will get down on the ground with them some but that is mainly to round out what we are doing. My original teacher in HapKiDo – Master Bong Soo Han would hit the roof if you actually got on the ground with the person but unfortunatley he passed last year and my new teacher – Master Trae Jung likes to get on the ground a little more or not get on the ground – either way. Mainly to have the option if you are forced off your feet or can’t win standing. I like both philosophies.
It’s really nuts to go to the ground in a street fight. I did this once and the guy I was pounding on’s brother ran up and cut the back of my head a few times with a razor. Live and learn. Luckily it wasn’t my throat – ehh? Dumb thing , I threw the fellah down and got on top of him. Sooo stupid. The other dude cut me and ran off and I didn’t know it happened.
On the other hand it is smart to have a few ground tricks – to me – so you can escape and not be totally lost there/ slash in case you get your leg hurt and have to fight there, etc.
I’m rambling but I think that may be the point in this type of topic.
I’m hesitant to talk about my cross training b/c I don’t want to come across as some wanker that is a “jack of all trades” but I’m just a martial arts junkie and b/c it’s what I do full time, I’m lucky enough to have the opportunity to cross train.
Basically what I do is Korean Martial Arts: HapKiDo (korean jujutsu with striking and judo) elements and ITF Taekwon-do (This is not the TKD in the olympics, we punch people in the head and the forms are much softer than old style karate)
Then I am heavy into Escrima.
I have a vision one day to add a Wing Chun class in like 35 years when I understand the system better.
I love it all. I admire folks like Sifu who concentrate on one thing but we cross trainers really aren’t “freaks” lol. But admitedly it would be difficult for the average person to study more than 2 arts as a recreational thing. It’s just my living and passion.
I’m still rambling. How about the weather. What about those Lakers. Anyone seen Dark Night….
I actually don’t have adult ADD – wait what was the post topic…. LOL
MH
September 3rd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Hi Monty,
Most certainly, I admire folks that cross-train, too. For one, where in the world do you find the time to do it?!
I think your experiences will definitely light a fire for those that think it cannot be done, because you are doing it. And that’s excellent!
Ground fighting. Whew, what a topic this can be. There are the “traditional” Wing Chun practitioners that think Wing Chun has no grappling or takedowns, even though the forms clearly show them.
When it comes to ground fighting, though, I believe that that was an “additional” concept introduced by Master Leung Ting to address the “what if” situations. Anything can and DOES happen in real fights, and we must always analyze the “what if” situations.
The realm of fighting has changed quite a bit over the generations because a lot more people are versed in various fighting methods than ever before. What used to be rare in times past might be a common occurence today, and ground fighting is really just another range of what we do.
Our primary concept is to remain standing, of course, and we will do everything we can to STAY standing. After all, purposelly limiting ourselves can greatly decrease the odds of success. But if we trip? Or get blind sided? Or the attacker is just better at taking us down than we are at defending it? What then?
Having a skill “for” ground fighting is necessary because we never know when it will be needed. So our ranges are (in order) punching/ palming, kicking, knees/ elbows, takedowns/ grappling, and ground fighting.
And I think Army has a wonderful chance of beating Navy this year. GO ARMY! Oh… I’m rambling, too, huh?
Sifu
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Cross training is very good Bruce Lee tought us that we should not limit ourselves to one style that we must learn to to have a formless form that we must flow to whatever feels most natural to us that way we develop an individual system thats original and that fits our desires and works for us and only us. The only thing is its hard to mix styles that are contradicting to each others principles. Its always best to mix styles that complement the other tai chi and wing chun go good together im actually going to learn tai chi later on after i get a solid wing chun base.
January 31st, 2009 at 7:29 am
Hi Chuco,
Good points. Admittedly, I have some mixed feelings about some of Bruce’s concepts, though. For example…
The motto of “Hack away the inessentials” sounds good, but to accomplish that, something has to be learned about it. Otherwise, how would we know what’s good and what isn’t? We could inadvertently remove a part of it that is good if we didn’t know “what” there was about it that worked to begin with. In the end, we might end up keeping the “bad” properties and removing the good.
The thing with all martial arts is that they are each founded on a particular idea or group of ideas, and then the system is built around that. In the case of Wing Chun there are multiple concepts such as simultaneous attack and defense, the centerline, straightline, etc.
When we think of elements such as that, it would be difficult to incorporate the mechanics of one system into the concepts of another. Not impossible, of course, but difficult.
The “bad” thing, if you will, is if the concepts begin changing to the point that what made it work in the first place no longer works because something was introduced to stifle it. For example, Wing Chun always strives to enact a kick with every punch so that the opponent has to deal with two levels simultaneously. Since many arts do “not” think of fighting in that way, it would require an overhaul of their mechanics to incorporate it.
I mention that because WC’s concepts are built specifically for that purpose, so trying to implement them into something else may or may not work. Experimentation would be the only way to see, really, but even then, what works for one person might not work for someone else.
All things considered, I like a lot of what Bruce developed, but at the same time, he was an extraordinarily gifted practitioner that could “make” things work for himself. Most others that work the same way just can’t seem to produce the same results.
Phil